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CaptainRandus



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 2354
Location: Quispamsis

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mary wrote:
CaptainRandus wrote:
ironic how i had jst noticed today how good the cheeseburgers at nbcc sj were and i came across this thread 3 hours later :P

Is there a secret cafeteria I don't know about? Because the one I had the other week was thoroughly asstastic. :P


well theres the one in the basement in C-block, but i baught mine in a-block. maybe i lucked out, but man it was delicious
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panik



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 15293
Location: SJ

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind going first. Here is my proof to backup statements. Rip it to shreds.


“What will we do with all the chickens, cows, and pigs if everyone becomes a vegetarian?”

It is unrealistic to expect that everyone will stop eating animals overnight. As the demand for meat decreases, fewer animals will be raised for food. Farmers will stop breeding so many animals and will turn to other types of agriculture. When there are fewer of these animals, they will be able to live more natural lives.

“If everyone only ate vegetables and grains, would there be enough to eat?”

Yes. We feed so much grain to animals to fatten them for consumption that if we all became vegetarians, we could produce enough food to feed everyone on Earth. In the U.S., animals raised for food are fed 70 percent of the corn, wheat, and other grains that we grow. The world’s cattle consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people—more than the entire human population.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Aren't humans natural carnivores?”

Actually, a vegetarian diet suits the human body better than a diet that includes meat. Carnivorous animals have claws, short digestive tracts, and long, curved fangs. Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called “canine” teeth are minuscule compared to those of carnivores and even compared to vegetarian primates like gorillas and orangutans. Our tiny canine teeth are better suited to biting into fruits than tearing through tough hides. We have flat molars and long digestive tracts that are suited to diets of vegetables, fruits, and grains. Eating meat is hazardous to our health and contributes to heart disease, cancer, and many other health problems.

Leading health experts agree that going vegetarian is the single-best thing we can do for ourselves and our families. Healthy vegetarian diets support a lifetime of good health and provide protection against numerous diseases, including our country’s three biggest killers: heart disease, cancer, and strokes. The American Dietetic Association states that vegetarians have “lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; … lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer” and that vegetarians are less likely than meat-eaters to be obese.1 Well-planned vegetarian diets provide us with all the nutrients that we need, minus all the saturated fat, cholesterol, and contaminants found in animal flesh, eggs, and dairy products.

Research has shown that vegetarians are 50 percent less likely to develop heart disease, and they have 40 percent of the cancer rate of meat-eaters.3,4 Plus, meat-eaters are nine times more likely to be obese than vegans are.5

The consumption of meat, eggs, and dairy products has also been strongly linked to osteoporosis, Alzheimer's, asthma, and male impotence. Scientists have also found that vegetarians have stronger immune systems than their meat-eating friends; this means that they are less susceptible to everyday illnesses like the flu.7 Vegetarians and vegans live, on average, six to 10 years longer than meat-eaters.8

A plant-based diet is the best diet for kids, too: Studies have shown that vegetarian kids grow taller and have higher IQs than their classmates, and they are at a reduced risk for heart disease, obesity, diabetes, and other diseases in the long run.10,11 Studies have shown that even older people who switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet can prevent and even reverse many chronic ailments.

Read our top nutrition tips for maximizing the health benefits of a vegetarian diet. It's never too late to turn over a new leaf—you can take control of your health today by going vegetarian. Request a free vegetarian starter kit today!

1 Ann Mangels, Virginia Messina, and Vesanto Melina, "Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian Diets," Journal of the American Dietetic Association, Jun. 2003, pp. 748-65.
2 Neal Barnard, M.D., The Power of Your Plate, Book Publishing Co.: Summertown, Tenn., 1990, p. 26.
3 Elizabeth Somer, "Eating Meat: A Little Doesn't Hurt," WebMD, 1999.
4 Neal Barnard, M.D., The Power of Your Plate, Book Publishing Co.: Summertown, Tenn., 1990, p. 26.
5 John Robbins, The Food Revolution, Conari Press: Boston, 2001, p. 58.
6 Neal Barnard, M.D., "Doctor in the House," PETA's Animal Times, Fall 2004, p. 7.
7 Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine with Amy Lanou, Healthy Eating for Life for Children, New York: John Wiley and Sons, 2002, p. 49.
8 Robbins, p. 14.
9 Benjamin Spock, M.D., Dr. Spock's Baby and Child Care: Seventh Edition, New York: Pocket Books, 1998, p. 333.
10 Charles Attwood, M.D., Dr. Attwood's Low-Fat Prescription for Kids, New York: Penguin Books, 1995, p. 84.
11 Robbins, p. 85.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


THE HUNGER ARGUMENT
Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16



THE ENVIRONMENT ARGUMENT
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat imported to U.S. annually from Central and South America: 300,000,000 pounds
Percentage of Central American children under the age of five who are undernourished: 75
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 square feet
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year



THE CANCER ARGUMENT
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week: 3.8 times
For women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week: 2.8 times
For women who eat butter and cheese 2-4 times a week: 3.25 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.



THE CHOLESTEROL ARGUMENT
Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 2.5 hours
Most common cause of death in the U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in the U.S.: every 45 seconds
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat: 15 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10 percent: 9 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent
Average cholesterol level of people eating meat-centered-diet: 210 mg/dl
Chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol level is 210 mg/dl: greater than 50 percent



THE NATURAL RESOURCES ARGUMENT
User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock production
Amount of water used in production of the average cow: sufficient to float a destroyer
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of California beef: 5,000
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260
Calories of fossil fuel expended to get 1 calorie of protein from beef: 78
To get 1 calorie of protein from soybeans: 2
Percentage of all raw materials (base products of farming, forestry and mining, including fossil fuels) consumed by U.S. that is devoted to the production of livestock: 33
Percentage of all raw materials consumed by the U.S. needed to produce a complete vegetarian diet: 2



THE ANTIBIOTIC ARGUMENT
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support



THE PESTICIDE ARGUMENT
Common belief: U.S. Department of Agriculture protects our health through meat inspection
Reality: fewer than 1 out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues
Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8
Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products, found in meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher
Amount of Dieldrin ingested by the average breast-fed American infant: 9 times the permissible level



THE ETHICAL ARGUMENT
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 660,000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job-injury in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker



THE SURVIVAL ARGUMENT
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner)
Food choice of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex (Where is he today?)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meat Eaters
1. Has Claws
2. No pores on skin: perspires through tongue
3. Pointed front teeth to tear flesh
4. No flat back molar teeth to grind food
5. Salivary glands in mouth (not needed to pre-digest grains & fruits)
6. Acid saliva: no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
7. Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest tough animal muscle.
8. Intestinal tract only 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out of body quickly


Plant Eaters
1. No Claws
2. Perspires through pores on the skin
3. No sharp pointed front teeth
4. Flat back molar teeth to grind food
5. Well developed salivary glands, needed to pre-digest grains & fruits
6. Alkaline saliva, much ptyalin to pre-digest grains
7. Stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat-eaters
8. Intestinal tract several times body length (plant foods do not decay as quickly so can pass more slowly through the body)



Humans
1. No Claws
2. Perspires through pores on the skin
3. No sharp pointed front teeth
4. Flat back molar teeth to grind food
5. Well developed salivary glands, needed to pre-digest grains & fruits
6. Alkaline saliva, much ptyalin to pre-digest grains
7. Stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat-eaters
8. Intestinal tract several times body length (plant foods do not decay as quickly so can pass more slowly through the body)"

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christopher durning



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halelujah! Praise be to Wheat! I'm saved!
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zmd
With vigor!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for trying to get it locked chris

jenn, that chart is now my desktop!
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szaionz wrote:

All this says to a lot of meat eaters is that vegans are crazy people that equate eating meat to slavery. You're working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong. If I thought eating meat was as heinous a practice as slavery, I wouldn't do it.


Thats fine if you think it makes me crazy to care about something other than myself. They thought people were crazy for caring about slaves as well.
Im not working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong i'm working under the fact that I believe its wrong.
I'm sure you don't believe its as bad as slavery. People didn't think slavery for blacks was the same as enslaving the white people.
Its all about looking at it in a different light. Pretending like your looking back on it after it changed.
Just because it isn't currently illegal or isn't viewed as wrong by the majority doesn't mean it isn't. If I we looked at things that way nothing would change.
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panik



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christopher durning wrote:
Quote:
All this says to a lot of meat eaters is that vegans are crazy people that equate eating meat to slavery. You're working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong. If I thought eating meat was as heinous a practice as slavery, I wouldn't do it.


No no no Steve! They're right! If they just keep arguing a bit more, we'll all get it! Keep going, almost there!


And I'm sure if you keep being a totally sarcastic I'll completely do a 360 and give up on something that I believe in with my whole heart. Whats your point.
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countdownhype



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
countdownhype wrote:
I am okay with killing non-endangered animals for food.

Eating meat is part of my culture.


Slavery used to be part of our culture.



Slavery is not part of my culture.
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zardoz
ignorant yank


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm going to have to back out of this one now.
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christopher durning wrote:
Halelujah! Praise be to Wheat! I'm saved!


Your welcome.
I'm also saved. I no longer owe you my respect.
Thank you for saving me all those wasted years of being nice to you.
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NiK



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
NiK wrote:
I'd eat people if sobey's put it on the shelves cheap enough.


I know this may have been a joke but 99% of the people who say things like this and the dog and cat thing (and believe it) would have a different opinion if actually faced with the option.


no, actually, I think I'm serious.

#1: Humans are just animals with big brains. tasty tasty brainzzzz.
#2: I eat animals, so why don't I eat people? Well, it's illegal? It's no more unhealthy than other meat. (yes I am aware of Kuru, but really, I'm more worried about mad cow. thank god I can't afford red meat very often.)
#3: If it's on the shelves at a hypothetical grocery store, that would mean that it's socially acceptable in the hypothetical universe in which this store exists. Also, much like the other meat I do eat, by the time it's on the store shelves, it no longer has a face and only exists as a pile of pink/red/white protein & fat.


I guess if I had to look every animal in the face before I killed & ate it I would probably eat less meat, maybe. I dunno. On the other hand, maybe I'd get used to it. Humans tend to that. It's not really so very long ago (in terms of our species' existence) that most humans killed their own source of meat.


Also, I do agree that it would be far more efficient for humans to use the land & resources used to mass produce meat to grow other food. Cut out the middle-man, as they say.
I'm part of the problem, not the solution. judge me.
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fuck this hurricane. i'm going out for samosas.


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Last edited by NiK on Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

countdownhype wrote:
panik wrote:
countdownhype wrote:
I am okay with killing non-endangered animals for food.

Eating meat is part of my culture.


Slavery used to be part of our culture.



Slavery is not part of my culture.


Not anymore.
And if you mean according to the meaning of the word culture slavery doesn't fit in to the definition...well then neither does meat.
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christopher durning



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
christopher durning wrote:
Quote:
All this says to a lot of meat eaters is that vegans are crazy people that equate eating meat to slavery. You're working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong. If I thought eating meat was as heinous a practice as slavery, I wouldn't do it.


No no no Steve! They're right! If they just keep arguing a bit more, we'll all get it! Keep going, almost there!


And I'm sure if you keep being a totally sarcastic I'll completely do a 360 and give up on something that I believe in with my whole heart. Whats your point.


I'm really glad you believe it with your whole heart. And believe me, if this was an anti vegan thread, I'd be defending you completely. I am very happy it makes you such a good person, and you and Dan both are good people. I just don't see the point in reasonning your beliefs to people who don't really care except that every once in a while they have to hear about how eating meat (as hawk said, most often a way of life and not even a choice) is wrong. You've made a choice. I haven't. You can't pursuade me. You can certainly bother me though, so I will continue to bother you. Everybody is wrong, get over it. Derive strength from the wrong belief that is most right for you, and let others do the same.
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Daren



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently read in a thread posted on giraffecycle, that going vegan makes you turn gay. So that's why I eat meat.
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CaptainRandus



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was in interesting read... but as follows, it seems to overlook how the food chain works. it touched on it, and it made me realise a flaw or two in my statement, but regardless. it still assumes that mankind would be the only ones eating grain. Also, less grain would be produced to feed this livestock. It does not consider the fact that there is less forestry every day, (due to fires, commercialization, etc). It mentions that over 56% of USA's farmlands are beef productions. Americans eat more beef than anyone in the world. Ever watching king of the hill? :P kidding)

its very alid, and im not argueing, im just mentiong the points it missed. Leading scientists? what about the others? who says theyre better than them? :P What vegetable has proteine, and iron? the supplements given out by pharmacies? they wont do. They arent natural, and the only way naturally to get it, is to get it from animals.

Even if im completely wrong anyways, i still will continue to eat meat
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christopher durning



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zmd wrote:
thanks for trying to get it locked chris

jenn, that chart is now my desktop!


I guess I'm just returning the favour. I don't like this thread at all. It's very disengenuine. I don't like anything that challenges another person's beliefs or preaches. I don't think this has any place on GC. I don't see a point. I'm not trying to get it locked, but hey, if it happens, great.

And Jenn, don't confuse my behaviour with disrespect to you. Or you Dan. I respect you very much, and I respect the dedication to your lifestyle. I would do this to anyone who got preachy or tried to debate religion. There's no point, and it just hurts feelings in the end.
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NiK



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainRandus wrote:
What vegetable has proteine?

uh, all of them?

CaptainRandus wrote:
What vegetable has iron?


most green (esp. leafy) ones?
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fuck this hurricane. i'm going out for samosas.


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CaptainRandus



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christopher durning wrote:
zmd wrote:
thanks for trying to get it locked chris

jenn, that chart is now my desktop!


I guess I'm just returning the favour. I don't like this thread at all. It's very disengenuine. I don't like anything that challenges another person's beliefs or preaches. I don't think this has any place on GC. I don't see a point. I'm not trying to get it locked, but hey, if it happens, great.

And Jenn, don't confuse my behaviour with disrespect to you. Or you Dan. I respect you very much, and I respect the dedication to your lifestyle. I would do this to anyone who got preachy or tried to debate religion. There's no point, and it just hurts feelings in the end.


Cudos!
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countdownhype



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
countdownhype wrote:
panik wrote:
countdownhype wrote:
I am okay with killing non-endangered animals for food.

Eating meat is part of my culture.


Slavery used to be part of our culture.



Slavery is not part of my culture.


Not anymore.


Not in my lifetime.
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone was trying to change anyone.
If they were then I could say the same about all the other threads started by meat eaters asking why I didn't do this or why I didn't think of that.
When I answer those questions people get all up in my face for trying to change them.
This thread was meant to be a turn around on that but somehow became an attack on vegans for trying to push their beliefs again.
And no one was attacking you personally you stormed into the thread quoting and insulting people and attacking them.
Also meat eating is a choice and a way of life.
I also never said I was a good person and meat eaters were bad people.
If you want to believe that secretly deep down vegans hate all meat eaters than thats your choice I guess. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of being vegan in the first place and loving all creatures (including humans).
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THoMFinBettle



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive always said that i would try human if i didnt have the kill the person, and if i could do it consequence free. i bet we're tastey. aparently we taste kinda like gamey beef.
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christopher durning



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
christopher durning wrote:
Halelujah! Praise be to Wheat! I'm saved!


Your welcome.
I'm also saved. I no longer owe you my respect.
Thank you for saving me all those wasted years of being nice to you.


And if you choose not to be nice to me over this, I'm sorry, but I don't want to befriend somebody who would disregard my profound respect for them and their belief because I didn't want to listen to them bicker with people. This is not an attack on you, it's an attack on these threads. They're dumb, circular, counter productive and useless.
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only get over it if I don't care about it at all in the first place.
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THoMFinBettle



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont think ive ever really seen a vegan on here push their beliefs so much as defend them. and its usually the result of someone trolling.
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panik



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christopher durning wrote:
panik wrote:
christopher durning wrote:
Halelujah! Praise be to Wheat! I'm saved!


Your welcome.
I'm also saved. I no longer owe you my respect.
Thank you for saving me all those wasted years of being nice to you.


And if you choose not to be nice to me over this, I'm sorry, but I don't want to befriend somebody who would disregard my profound respect for them and their belief because I didn't want to listen to them bicker with people. This is not an attack on you, it's an attack on these threads. They're dumb, circular, counter productive and useless.


Then I guess I could say the same about your music threads where you bicker with other people over music. Your comments lead me to believe that you didn't respect me at all (or anyone else in this thread).
I could say that you thought you were superior (the same way I apparently think I am) because you didn't involve yourself in such foolishness. It can go all ways.
No one is trying to say they are better. They are/were discussing. Only people who find the subject unimportant consider it to be useless.
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christopher durning



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
I don't think anyone was trying to change anyone.
If they were then I could say the same about all the other threads started by meat eaters asking why I didn't do this or why I didn't think of that.
When I answer those questions people get all up in my face for trying to change them.
This thread was meant to be a turn around on that but somehow became an attack on vegans for trying to push their beliefs again.
And no one was attacking you personally you stormed into the thread quoting and insulting people and attacking them.
Also meat eating is a choice and a way of life.
I also never said I was a good person and meat eaters were bad people.
If you want to believe that secretly deep down vegans hate all meat eaters than thats your choice I guess. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of being vegan in the first place and loving all creatures (including humans).


See the red? That's why I don't like this thread. I'm not opposed to discussing religion/beliefs. Hell, I love it. The more you know. I got my back up immediately because this was a "well let's see how you like it" scenario. If you hate it so much, why do the same thing? Wrong + Wrong = two big stinky wrongs. Hence my "HE STARTED IT NYA NYA NYA NYA NYA" statement. And in fact, no-one was attacking veganism in the other thread. If they were, I would have been attacking them.
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Hawk
Funkalicious Throbatator


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THoMFinBettle wrote:
i dont think ive ever really seen a vegan on here push their beliefs so much as defend them. and its usually the result of someone trolling.


Oh, unprovoked attacks have happened. I created a thread once to simply post a recipe for a kind of faux Peking Duck (pm me for the recipe - I don't post them anymore) and in that thread, was attacked and vilified for so actively promoting hatred towards animals, solely because I think those fucking ducks deserve a bath in some fucking soy sauce. Those little fuckers.

Anyway, it's happened.
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christopher durning wrote:
panik wrote:
I don't think anyone was trying to change anyone.
If they were then I could say the same about all the other threads started by meat eaters asking why I didn't do this or why I didn't think of that.
When I answer those questions people get all up in my face for trying to change them.
This thread was meant to be a turn around on that but somehow became an attack on vegans for trying to push their beliefs again.
And no one was attacking you personally you stormed into the thread quoting and insulting people and attacking them.
Also meat eating is a choice and a way of life.
I also never said I was a good person and meat eaters were bad people.
If you want to believe that secretly deep down vegans hate all meat eaters than thats your choice I guess. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of being vegan in the first place and loving all creatures (including humans).


See the red? That's why I don't like this thread. I'm not opposed to discussing religion/beliefs. Hell, I love it. The more you know. I got my back up immediately because this was a "well let's see how you like it" scenario. If you hate it so much, why do the same thing? Wrong + Wrong = two big stinky wrongs. Hence my "HE STARTED IT NYA NYA NYA NYA NYA" statement. And in fact, no-one was attacking veganism in the other thread. If they were, I would have been attacking them.


Thats not what I meant. It wasn't a lets see how you like it, it was a put yourself in my shoes please.
Also for the record I was asleep on the couch when zmd made this thread.
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk wrote:
THoMFinBettle wrote:
i dont think ive ever really seen a vegan on here push their beliefs so much as defend them. and its usually the result of someone trolling.


Oh, unprovoked attacks have happened. I created a thread once to simply post a recipe for a kind of faux Peking Duck (pm me for the recipe - I don't post them anymore) and in that thread, was attacked and vilified for so actively promoting hatred towards animals, solely because I think those fucking ducks deserve a bath in some fucking soy sauce. Those little fuckers.

Anyway, it's happened.


That is the only one I can think of though. Even if there were like two or three more they still wouldn't come close to all the stupid question ones.
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caper



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no stupid questions. Only stupid answers.
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway I'm going to get out of this thread.
Discussion from my end is over. So there ya go. Wish granted.
*passes out on couch again*
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Peter Green
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG a thread about people's eating habitz! Lock!!!

As for why I eat animal meat for food...my answer is why not. They're just animals.
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zmd
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is that a serious answer peter green?
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mary



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psst... Peter... say "no."
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christopher durning



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I eat animals because I think humans are superior, and since animals can't pick cotton, we should eat them.
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Peter Green
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zmd wrote:
is that a serious answer peter green?

Well, I'm never completely serious here. But a more serious answer might be that I couldn't live without a healthy portion of meat in my diet. It's a heck of a lot of work to safely and healthily replace meat in a diet, and for someone who has no real moral imperative to do so, it doesn't seem worth it. I know it's selfish and bastardly of me, but we do rule the planet. If some master race came along that completely dominated us physically, intellectually, culturally, and civilizationally, and they started rounding us up and eating us, power to 'em! :|
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Daren



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christopher durning wrote:
I eat animals because I think humans are superior, and since animals can't pick cotton, we should eat them.

As a brown skinned man, I'm offended that this made me laugh.
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geddyshredpwn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daren wrote:
christopher durning wrote:
I eat animals because I think humans are superior, and since animals can't pick cotton, we should eat them.

As a brown skinned man, I'm offended that this made me laugh.


thats some good scapegoatin
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zmd
With vigor!


Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Green wrote:
zmd wrote:
is that a serious answer peter green?

Well, I'm never completely serious here. But a more serious answer might be that I couldn't live without a healthy portion of meat in my diet. It's a heck of a lot of work to safely and healthily replace meat in a diet, and for someone who has no real moral imperative to do so, it doesn't seem worth it. I know it's selfish and bastardly of me, but we do rule the planet. If some master race came along that completely dominated us physically, intellectually, culturally, and civilizationally, and they started rounding us up and eating us, power to 'em! :|


i did assume you were joking, and i got a real answer by asking, thanks!
it can be a bit of work, especially at first, but, i have found my health benefits increased once i balanced myself out a bit...i did things slowly, and i would recommend anyone do the same
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Peter Green
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mary wrote:
psst... Peter... say "no."

If someone wants to judge me or think differently of me because of my diet, then they can eat my meat.
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notfarnow
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am on the fence. I have been a vegetarian on and off since I was 12. Problem is I LOVE good meat... it really is delicious.

I wrestle with the hypocracy of my meat eating. Unless my survival depended on it, I would never, ever be able to kill an animal for food. I can only eat meat if it has been butchered and packaged enough that I am distanced from what it really is: pieces of an animal that was killed for my luxury.

And eating meat really is a luxury; I certainly don't NEED it. If anything, my health suffers when I'm eating meat. My cholesterol has wavered between "borderline" and "code red" since I was 24. When I'm off meat, it settles into the acceptable range.

Environmental and moral issues around meat eating bother me as well. For every pound of meat, there are several pounds of grain & vegetables that AREN'T being produced. That bothers me, knowing that there are people who are dying RIGHT NOW from starvation.

Furthermore, I REALLY struggle with how the majority of our meat is produced. I suspect our future grandchildren will think we were amoral monsters when they read about conditions in the meat industry. They will want to know what we did to stop it, and will be saddened and disgusted when they find out we did nothing.

I'm trying my best to strike a balance. My wife is a vegetarian, so that makes it a lot easier. When I do buy meat, I do my best to buy locally raised... but that's not easy.
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thebunk



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what my observations are on this thread:

- LOL at trying to disguise this thread as a discussion.

- People asking Vegan's questions is equal to Hawk getting attacked for posting a recipie?

- Chris Durning is all kinds of "On the Money" here.

- Daren is a prick but he makes me laugh sometimes.

- The best post made in this thread (from Dan Culb.) was completely bypassed by most.

- Odd to see Hawk in a Vegan debate (not a bad thing, just an observation).
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mary



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good synopsis. :)
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panik



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tries really really hard to "not care".
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Hawk
Funkalicious Throbatator


Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thebunk wrote:


- Odd to see Hawk in a Vegan debate (not a bad thing, just an observation).


Why is it odd to see me in this kind of debate? I'm far, far more passionate about food and animals than everybody else here combined. I don't get it.

Edit: I'm terribly sorry about what I've said. Here's a perfectly slow-smoked pork rib:

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sad panda
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think we don't kill and eat other humans because the sudden disappearance of a person seems to cause more disruption among the ruling species. the average human morsel has certain responsibilities, other people depend on them, and a sudden break in circuit would set off a domino effect of sorts.

we don't eat penniless apathetic homeless drifters because they probably taste bad.
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eccrunk



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
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Location: Burlington, Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szaionz wrote:
eccrunk wrote:
panik wrote:
countdownhype wrote:
I am okay with killing non-endangered animals for food.

Eating meat is part of my culture.


Slavery used to be part of our culture.

gamblor wrote:
tastes good. mankind has been doing it for years. other species have been doing it to each other for years. hell, our bodies are even designed for it.


Mankind used to practice slavery.
And the designed bodies well there is just as much evidence against that as there is supporting it.


repeat


All this says to a lot of meat eaters is that vegans are crazy people that equate eating meat to slavery. You're working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong. If I thought eating meat was as heinous a practice as slavery, I wouldn't do it.


i hope i'm not making vegans look crazy, when i said that earlier to gamblor i was just pointing out the flaws in his logic.
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eccrunk



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panik wrote:
christopher durning wrote:
Quote:
All this says to a lot of meat eaters is that vegans are crazy people that equate eating meat to slavery. You're working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong. If I thought eating meat was as heinous a practice as slavery, I wouldn't do it.


No no no Steve! They're right! If they just keep arguing a bit more, we'll all get it! Keep going, almost there!


And I'm sure if you keep being a totally sarcastic I'll completely do a 360 and give up on something that I believe in with my whole heart. Whats your point.


it's a 180. 360 would bring you right back to where you started.
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thebunk



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccrunk wrote:
panik wrote:
christopher durning wrote:
Quote:
All this says to a lot of meat eaters is that vegans are crazy people that equate eating meat to slavery. You're working under the assumption that meat eaters feel eating meat is wrong. If I thought eating meat was as heinous a practice as slavery, I wouldn't do it.


No no no Steve! They're right! If they just keep arguing a bit more, we'll all get it! Keep going, almost there!


And I'm sure if you keep being a totally sarcastic I'll completely do a 360 and give up on something that I believe in with my whole heart. Whats your point.


it's a 180. 360 would bring you right back to where you started.


Plus you may be dizzy as well!

Anyway, can we just "Shut it Down"?

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NiK



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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kmd



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk wrote:
THoMFinBettle wrote:
i dont think ive ever really seen a vegan on here push their beliefs so much as defend them. and its usually the result of someone trolling.


Oh, unprovoked attacks have happened. I created a thread once to simply post a recipe for a kind of faux Peking Duck (pm me for the recipe - I don't post them anymore) and in that thread, was attacked and vilified for so actively promoting hatred towards animals, solely because I think those fucking ducks deserve a bath in some fucking soy sauce. Those little fuckers.

Anyway, it's happened.

this is one of those times I wish GC had the rolling eye smiley.
You were "attacked" and "vilified" (at least by me) because of your complete disrespect. There is/was no need for you to be all like "hey, you stupid duck Im so much better than you that I can kill you and eat your body you stupid fucking duck". That little fucker provided you with a meal, at least have the courtesy to be respectful.


I was "militant" for the first while I was vegan, then I learned that making people feel like shit about their dietary choices wasn't helping. The only thing I expect of people is to be responsible and respectful with your choices. Killing excessive amounts of animals for meals you don't need and supporting an industry that supports abusive behaviour is neither responsible or respectful.
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